Christian Dating Guide

What is the relationship between erotic desire and spirituality?

I’m hoping for some thoughtful answers that go beyond the traditional conservative views that equate desire with sin, but I already know that some of you are going to say that erotic desire is only acceptable within the context of marriage…but then I would ask: Is it sinful to feel erotic desire for someone you are dating? Are erotic fantasies ok? If you are basing your views on the Bible (or other holy books), please reference specific scriptures to back up your views. Do you think it is really important to Christian beliefs that Jesus be a virgin? Would it have been impossible for him to be the son of God if he had gotten married? Why? If sex in marriage is a gift from God, why couldn’t Jesus receive this gift? Is there any reason that Jesus shouldn’t have felt erotic desires for women during his life? I’m not surprised that most answers followed fairly traditional views – more or less equating erotic desire with sin, or as a distraction from our more important spiritual path. I am disappointed that, although the question has been open for several days, no one has yet stepped up to offer a sex-positive alternative. I think that the oppression of women, and devaluation of erotic energy are connected. The traditional view suggests that erotic desire conflicts with spirituality. I think this is the result of males in ancient history (actually starting in prehistory) deciding that they needed to control female sexuality in order to ensure patrilineal decent. You simply can’t have patriarchy unless you make sure that women stay sexually monogamous with their men. (For the purposes of patriarchy, it doesn’t matter if men sleep around.) In other words, there is a conflict between female erotic desire, and patriarchy. The result was a devaluation of everything feminine, and the linking of monogamy to spirituality in such a way that erotic desire in general became a result of our” fall from grace.” The Bible offers contradictory views on the role of women and sex in spirituality, but some passages from Paul clearly show that women are not considered to be equal to men, spiritually. Here is one example: God is not a God of disorder but of peace. As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must remain in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. (1 Corinthians 14:33-35) Here is another example: In 1 Timothy 2:11-15, Paul wrote that "a woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner." My point is that literal interpretation of the Bible as the sole source of truth is problematic, unless one wants to bite the bullet and uncritically accept that women are spiritually inferior because it was "the woman who was deceived and became a sinner." The real source of our belief that erotic desire conflicts with spirituality is not any actual conflict between the two, but rather, a conflict between patriarchal social structure and female erotic desire. I believe that the most healthy, holistic, and wholesome forms of spirituality are those that incorporate erotic desire into spiritual beliefs without devaluing erotic energy. Sometimes this is referred to as erotic spirituality or sacred sexuality. The key is that our erotic desire is a Divine gift, not a consequence of sin or falling from the grace of God. Forgrat: Your answer demonstrates exactly what I think is wrong with traditional views on the nature of erotic desire. As your answer shows, the notion that celibacy is more spiritual than erotic expression is not the result of any profound insight into truth, but rather, just a sort of manipulation aimed at controlling human behavior. In short, we have been duped by the church. It is an issue of political control, not genuine spiritual insight. Erotic desire IS a form of spiritual energy, and the efforts of political manipulators (going back thousands of years) to divorce erotic desire from spirituality introduce a sort of poison into the process of human self-exploration and growth. Basically, our most intimate and powerful sources of spiritual growth are used to manipulate people into behaving in the way that church authorities (who are essential political figure – not genuine spiritual allies) want us to behave. Temple: You gave a very insightful answer, and it is the sort of thing I was hoping for when I asked the question, namely, the opportunity to consider some connections that I might have otherwise missed. I like the way in which you draw the two realms together via touch in a broad metaphorical sense of the term. I think what you say is true: “Erotic desire is the physical craving to be touched. By man, woman or God.” This is essentially what I’ve been saying for years, and it is gratifying to see that others understand this idea as well. I have chosen to think of divinity in terms of “goddess” rather than “god” specifically for this reason – to remind me in an on-going way that erotic energy is divine energy, and divinity can speak erotically. I would extend the metaphor of touch to self-touch as well. Touch brings tangibility. Touch is foundational to Being. Erotic touch is foundational to Being Whole and Being meaningfully engaged in Existence.

Public Comments

1. There really was an Adam and Eve and there really was a Fall. Therefore, all born under Adam are born fallen. Things are purchased in like terms. In order to buy back mankind, a man, a second Adam, had to be given. Jesus was that Second Adam. He had to be tested in all ways and remain without sin. Then, through death, the channels of the Spirit would be opened for man to be redeemed through Him. Why? God has His ways. Just like a person may have certain ways about him/her...even so, God has His ways about Him. Therefore, had Jesus been born normally, He would have been born fallen and useless. Therefore, He was born of a virgin. Had he partaken of a woman, He would have also failed for there are a myriad of spiritual things that happen during sex. That is why God says Marriage. This world is damned beyond imagination because they triffle with this same Jesus. But, God gives them this time to live their lives under the delusion that all is well. Nothing is well for this world. Hell is real. And most go there. These are God's words. If they offend you, take it up with Him.
2. first of all Jesus knew so much more than we ever will. it wasn't the plan for Jesus to get married or have sex. his purpose was much bigger than that and he knew it. how ever he spent 40 days and nights all alone being tempted by the devil. so I'm sure he knows what erotic desire is. i think erotic fantasies are normal. and you wont go to hell for having them. it is also normal it have them with someone your dating. i cant give you specific scriptures.(some where in the bible)god does say he will look down to see what your doing and if he doesn't like what he see. he will see what your thinking and if he doesn't like that. he will see whats in your heart. so we have 3 chances..you can be having erotic thoughts and performing erotic acts. and as long as there is love and kindness in your heart. it's all good. at least that's what i think
3. I don't think there is necessarily a positive causal connection between erotic desire and spirituality. Erotic desire happens, but I have more often found it a distraction from being able to really focus on someone's personality and get to know them better. Erotic ACTIVITY is only acceptible within the context of marriage. There are many reasons to marry, and people marry for reasons other than sex far more often than they marry for sex. There used to be an old (colonial days) custom called 'bundling' where a young man and young woman were SEWN INTO a 'bundling bag', sort of a two-compartment sleeping bag. The purpose was to allow them a degree of socialization and romance while preventing actual sexual practices; it was not a full-body condom. The practice eventually died out, but it was used for generations. I think this recognizes the temptation involved and acknowledges that young people must get acquainted on a basis other than sheer sex in order to know whether they are 'compatible'. It is too easy to assume that if orgasm is reached the two of you are compatible. With no apologies to those who may boast of their size or capacity, nearly everybody is physically compatible with everybody else. Where do you think they got the phrase, "one size fits all"...? I think Jesus probably did experience erotic desires at times, but disregarded them in favor of what He intended to do with His life-- sacrifice it at Calvary. Only the assumtion that Jesus was not divine and aware of a mission to redeem the world from sin by dying on a cross leaves room for the possibility of having a normal family life and relations; and such an assumption goes against what the New Testament clearly teaches throughout the entirety of it.
4. The idea that Jesus was a virgin is a very Catholic theology. As a devout Christian (Protestant), I believe that Jesus was God who lived as a man. We know he was tempted, but never given details on whether he was tempted in a sexual way, which is one of man's biggest temptations. I have no idea if he was married or not, but given his culture & his age, it is possible. I don't think it takes away from who He was or what He did at all. But I don't believe in the whole idea that Mary was also a product of a virgin birth & that Jesus had to be a virgin -- those are Catholic theologies that I don't believe in. We aren't given direct details about ANY of the apostles, but I think it is unlikely that all of them remained unmarried, or that many of them weren't already married when they became apostles. Because we are told he was "without sin", I believe that if he did have sex, it was within the context of a marriage, otherwise he was celibate. Honestly, while it is interesting to ponder, it is beside the point. The truth of his life is that he gave us the possibility for a personal relationship with God, forgiveness upon request & freedom from a million laws & regulations. The Bible tells us that sexual sin is sinning against ourselves (I Cor 6:18). I think this gets ignored when sexual sin is treated as the worst of the worst by church people -- it isn't by far. But it is very damaging to ourselves, over the long run, to engage in sex outside of marriage. It damages our spirit & it damages our future potential marriage. If you aren't married, and God has asked you not to do those things, once you have done them it is extremely difficult to go back to being celibate. I have known several women who were sleeping with everyone they date longer than a few days, and I see the tremendous hurt they are causing themselves. Getting tangled up too early with men who are wrong for them & unable to get away, etc. It is also a fallacy that you need to know if someone is "good" before you get married. Being "good" is relative to a partnership. Within a long term marriage, if both partners are open & loving, you learn each other so well that it becomes a great joy -- that someone knows exactly how to bring you great pleasure & wants to do so. So much better than casual flings with people who are only worried about their own enjoyment. We are born to be very sexual, to have those thoughts & want those things -- it is normal & fine. When it is kept within a marriage, it brings great fulfillment & joy to your marriage, and to yourself. Outside of that context, it can bring you great personal hurt & harm.
5. 1. Read about David and Basba, lust, exotria etc. David the chosen of God for the line of Jesus, although he fell through the human trap of "erotia", murder his never quiet rasied as high as he had been. He sons were killed or died by accidents, and he eventually lost the crown. Of course his son begotten by Basba, Solomon rose to great deeds and understanding himself. 2.You are a mortal, therefor feelings of erotic behavior is what all this stuff in the great book is about. It is interesting to note that man always wants to justify behavior with the Bible. As if no one can find the exact verse that say, hey, that nasty visual thought you have you shouldnt, because you could actually act on it, thus creating sin, or worse yet as the great David did, his lust resulted in murder, and then you could not act but accept in in others and allow it to spread like pallin from one individual to another. I think Jesus reminds us that even the thoughts of lust are sinnful. Covers your question here. 3. Yes it is important to believe that Jesus was as holly as he was. Why, because it is the very truths of his life, those that he spoke, those that he lived, that he was came to earth for, to show everyone of us, even the non-believers that even we as he, can over come the materiality of the world and conquer all that he has done in our lives too. Faith is faith, but belief or believing it the goal. 4. He did not have a son. 5. He did not marry, it is a human condition to keep society, cultures and civilization in check so that humanity may progress, ever it be so slowly. Once again Jesus addressed this in saying that in the future men and women will not be given in marriage. Why, be cause they will advance and understand that they need not to, giving ones word with that being a bond by their spiritualized honour. 6. Marriage a gift from God, it is a means to keep the family in context, man and woman loving examples for their children and others through our mortal existence. 7. Jesus did not need to marry a mortal woman, or have sex, for these are pleasures that are of the carnale mind. Those that will as we progress spiritually drop away from our experience in God. 8. Jesus was holier than that to fall prey to the earthly desires of mankind. Face it.....he just was awsome. By the way, I need not prove anything by giving you Biblical references, LOOK them UP, plently of sites that will help you. As Jesus say, each of us must do our own work and you will not enter the kingdom of heaven unless you do so as he did.
6. I think sex and fantasies are perfectly normal, I'm mean we humans today are anything but Adam and Eve. We have needs and desires that are merely curiosities. I do believe that Jesus was a human man, for that matter the only truly perfect man that will ever walk this Earth. But that doesn't mean he wasn't a husband or a lover or even a father. Sure Erotic fantasies are OK, WHEN THEY ARE NATURAL, but there has to be a line of what is right and wrong. I mean bestiality may be a fantasy for some one but that is not natural and totally gross, there are other unnatural fantasies that I just can't get enough balls to mention. I think Jesus loved women and men alike and he loved them just as much as he loved God, but I think it was a different kind of love then what we are used to, pure love. I think it is possible for the church to hide something of that magnitude because it would let us know that Jesus was human like all of us.
7. first of all an analysis from human plane of understanding is only from the faculty of sensory perception,which has only made you ask this question.Otherwise you would not link the erotic pleasure with spirituality.Actually on numerous occasions I have told people that the word spirit as conceived by any ordinary human or even the enlightened souls is wrong. The Holy spirit mentioned inthe scriptures is neither ethenol nor methenol.It is the everglowing `LIFE,LOVE,LIGHT' invisibly inherent in the cosmic field,which cannot be seen through human organ called eye,but experienced if you are that even when the eyes are closed.
8. Listen, erotic desire has nothing to do with spirituality. Erotic desire is a human condition of life in this realm. Spirituality transcends the human condition and is deep within our souls. Spirituality is something within our souls and is present at birth, even though the baby is unable to speak or communicate these truths. Erotic desire is intended for our pleasure while here. Jesus was not here to be human. He was here to give a message and to provide a sacrifice so we can go home when we pass from this existence. Jesus was not denied erotic desire, it was just not on his agenda. It was not even on his radar. Jesus was only half "human" but God in all ways. God does not need erotic desires. These are simply two opposing elements which are not related in the slightest. It is impossible to tie the two together. Rather like attempting to put to opposing magnets together. It just is not something which relates together.
9. You may be interested in a blog called Sex and the Light, by Joshua Bagby. http://sexandthelight.blogspot.com/ He writes about Sexuality and Spirituality. I have some thoughts but his are better worded and deal with your question more directly than I could.
10. There is absolutely no right or wrong. All things only have the meaning and value you place upon them. If you think sex is fine, desire is fine, then it is. GOD (or whatever bonding force in the universe) does not care. Please, are we so vain to think GOD is sitting with a score card, boring. He is doing important GOD stuff like creating the Universe If desire brings me pain - then I have to look at that. Jesus did not teach any type of judgement, he only taught love - that's it - done.
11. Erotic, as a noun most often relates to sexual activity. Spirituality, as a noun relates to your inner beliefs in Divinity. To phrase "erotic spirituality," both words become a verb as both are moving together, becomming more a discriptive feeling that is somehow associated with a belief in a more fertile spiritual essence. (I,E, Offering the Virgin to The Volcano.) - If Jesus had relations with women, that's really non of my business.
12. From my point of view only; Erotic desire. Erotic desire blurs my mind, brings me bad consequences, bad luck too. It wasn't something pure it was lust. I try to avoid it, so as not to bring something bad. I can feel a shadow over me, I think my aura gets dim, my mind and body seemed heavier.Personal experience. Spirituality Spirituality in lust/erotic desire? I can't put them to gather. Cleanliness is next to godliness. A mind driven by lust can't be clean. Looking into ourselves deeply, when we had fulfilled our lust, will the drive , desire return.?.. very likely. Had our motivation been pure (I think, only what I think) we are able to be unaffected wheance it comes or goes. If we have no lust for the other person(what I think only, ok), we are not affected, there is no such desire. But married couples, would be needing a different approach, than what was thought of above, definately. Sex, is also what is needed to keep the marrige and family togather. Sex then would mean a lot more than just lust. ( I think) But in short, ( only what I think, ok) if ones mind and heart is dirty, whatever one does is bad, and if ones mind and heart is good whatever one does is good. But I always stick to this phrase; Sabbabapasa akaranam, kusalasa upasampada, cachita pariodapanam, etam Buddhana sasanam. Do good avoid evil, this is the advise of all the Buddhas of the three periods of time. Just what I think, only.
13. Communion. We're driven to commune or experience oneness physically, emotionally, mentally and spiritually. In the Bible the term 'know' is used to portray intimate realtions. We 'know' someone because we merge our awareness with him/her and experience a sense of completeness. We understand him and share with him and through the experience we feel at one. How many people have said, "Oh God" during sex? Ever wonder why? It's the closeness, the communing with another, that makes it a spiritual experience. IMO virgin denotes purity of thought and action and does not mean no sex. I think Jesus probably did have sex. Why not? If two people are able to commune on a spiritual level, a mental level, and an emotional level it's only natural to share that communion on the physical level also. It's beautiful. I think he'd certainly be able to demonstrate the beauty in that act of communion if he so chose. I'm back :-) I found a few quotes that better explain where my words were lacking. The following quotes are taken from various books by the same author. The mystery of sex itself is bound up with the re-establishment of the sense of unity and of balance, of oneness or of wholeness. In its higher human aspect, this sexual differentiation is only the symbol or lowest expression of the cleavage or separativeness of which the mystic is aware and which makes him seek at-one-ment or union with what he calls divinity. The sex instinct has worked out and finds its logical consummation in the relationship - consciously realized - of the soul and the body. This is the keynote of mysticism and religion, which is today, as ever, the expression of the Law of Attraction, not as it expresses itself through physical plane marriage, but as it finds its consummation (for man) in the sublime marriage carried forward with conscious intent between the positive soul and the negative and receptive form. Cosmically speaking, sex is a short word used to express the relation existing (during manifestation) between spirit and matter, and between life and form. It is, in the last analysis, an expression of the Law of Attraction, - that basic law which underlies the entire manifestation of life in form, and which is the cause of all phenomenal appearance. Humanly or physically speaking, sex is the word used to denote the relation between men and women which results in the reproduction of the species. Speaking in terms of modern usage as it is found among the unthinking and the average, sex is a word which denotes the alluring satisfaction of the animal impulses at any cost and with no rhythmic regulation. Sex is essentially an expression of duality, and of the separation of a unity into two aspects or halves. These we can call spirit and matter, male and female, positive and negative; and they are in the nature of a stage upon the evolutionary ladder towards a final unity. . . viewing them as a basic unity, though temporarily separated in the present dualistic expression of the human being. It must be remembered that this separation fosters a powerful impulse towards fusion, and this urge to blend we call sex. Sex is, in reality, the instinct towards unity: first of all, a physical unity. It is the innate (though much misunderstood) principle of mysticism, which is the name we give to the urge to union with the divine. Like all else that undeveloped man has touched, we have perverted and distorted a divine idea and prostituted an immaterial urge to material desire. We have reversed the direction of the sacral energy, hence the over-developed animal nature and functions of average humanity.
14. It would take more than a book to do justice to this question, but here is the short version: Love as an emotion is a gift from Divinity. It is freely given to all humans who are willing to accept it. Unlike Divine Love, Love between humans can be expressed physically, through touch. Sex is one form, perhaps the most intimate form) of touch. Sex can also be a purely physical event, driven by erotic desire which is usually equated with Lust (a sin). So this is the dividing line: Sex as Only physical = Animal drive = Lust = wrong. Sex as Physical expression of Emotion = Binding power of Love = Worship of Divinity = right. The Bible does not mention Jesus urinating. It is assumed that he did. All men did (and still do). In his culture, All men were expected to be married and have children by age 30. Just because the Bible does not mention this, we can not assume that he remained single. If he had sex, there is absolutely no doubt that it would be to express Love and not for purely physical release. Perhaps this could be confused with erotic desire, but it is not. But I'm just an old hillbilly fart, so what do I know.
15. I had erotic desire for a man who had been my friend for years. I realized that I had a deep love for him and that he had an overwhelming desire for me also. We got together and had the most passionate, erotic relationship ever. Unfortunately it ended terribly as our attraction to each other was too much for both of us to handle and the relationship spiralled out of control. The whole experience left me devastated but some good came out of it as I had no idea that I could let all my inhibitions go and love someone so much and allow myself to be so vulnerable to possible pain. I did, I survived but I most certainly will never ever do something like that again so maybe erotic desire is wrong and I am now paying for my sin. I must add that while in this relationship we both said that there must be a god because it felt so spiritual to be together because we had never experienced such beautiful intimacy before.
16. I think errotic desire is there to make multiplication of humans not so yucky and disgusting just imagine the pain of chilbirth a woman has to go through to make another human and please there is only one Jesus no one can be compared to Him or to have a life like Him. Spirituality is still there though you feel these desire and control it and not let it control you.
17. In the first place, I'd like to paraphrase what Paul stresses in Corinthians 1, Chapter 7. Paul says, "Christians who stay celebacy have more blessings than those who can't. It is because they could contribute more time to the church." Have arms, eyes, sex organs and body is not a gift, many of us are born with all these. But to stay celebacy is a true blessing and a gift from God. I couldn't agree that sex is a gift from God.
18. Okay. It's okay. I'm here now. There are so many questions within your basic question that it is impossible to address all of them. However, if I understand your basic question, the connection between erotic desire and spirituality is a very close one. Spirituality is the erotic desire to have an intimate relationship, a personal physical need to know that God is touching us. Erotic desire is the physical craving to be touched. By man, woman or God. When you touch the one you love with erotic desire you are telling them that the very spirit that God gave you WANTS them. There is no conflict between these two aspects of our nature.
19. I'll just cut to the chase. First: there is no God. Now that that's out of our way ... Erotic desire is the greatest expression of spirituality possible to a woman or a man. It is our reward for our life and work. It is what makes human happiness possible.
20. Interesting answers. I think it's apples and oranges but that is simply my inability to put "erotic desire" in the same context as spirituality. My desires are shared, my spirit is private. 2 pts.
21. first off, there is no connection between desire and religion. desire is someone innate in us all. it becomes "religious" in deciding how we deal with it. we cannot control our fantasies anymore than we cancontrol who we love or who our parents are. if we give in to all our desires, that is where we delve into "sin" u r correct in thinking that most rules on desire or patrilineal in nature- even those in the bible( otherwise, why is a man allowed several wives but a woman 1 husband?) you can be spiritualand be human (have desires) at the same time. you simply must not act on those desires you consider immoral.
22. If it's immoral, can you give reason past God? We question things that don't seem reasonable & not just because they are in the Bible. There's no such thing as a thought crime. I have active hormones & so do alot of other people. You have active hormones as well. There's no magic trick that will just erase it from our mind. It's my understanding that moral & ethical issues are concerned with actions & how they impact on others & the environment. In my opinion it would be far healthier to our society if we did not lay the tag "immoral" on people who take pleasure in the stray impure thought that runs through their heads, so long as they never act on them. It doesn't hurt anybody & it's probably a very healthy release valve.